Posts by Had Enough

46

WTBTS Innocent in Swaggart Case?

by troubled in

jw
friends

awhile back, i saw information on another web site about the wtbts's involvement with the swaggart case.

the information was presented in a way that depicted the wtbts as involved with the swaggart case and, therefore, false religion.. at first, i was shocked.

however, i did some research on what an amicus curie is.

Had Enough

Naeblis says:

If they've been dishonest in this way how can they have credibility when it comes to life and death matters?

The WTS is losing its credibility left and right with the info that's being blasted all over the internet. Just look at the threads here in the last month or so on exposing the WTS in their deceit of misquoting statements made by medical and historical authorities in their publications on blood.

You also say:

What stops them from lying then?

Nothing stops them...misquoting and making misleading references is lying.

As more and more people are becoming aware of that fact, the less credibility the WTS is having, maybe even until there is none left.

I've only just started searching things out about the WTS in the last 4-5 months after decades of believing every word they uttered. I've only just scratched the surface of all the info already exposed and there's more to come I'm sure.

troubled:
Whether the WTS makes an outright blatant lie, or infers something that isn't, or omits the facts ("withheld full information")which will lead a person to think the opposite of the truth....they are all "lies"...and that makes the WTS a "false religion".

Someone's signature quotation here (I think its ros) quotes the WTS when it said something about any religion that lies is a false religion. So what does that say about the WTS itself?

1

The Hitler Letter - Authenticated by The Watchtowe

by Kent in

jw
friends

we have been accused of "tampering" with documents, and of presenting "false" documents.

this time we show the documents stamped by the watchtower's german branch office - and their own translation of their letter to hr.

hitler.

Had Enough

Hi Kent:

I've heard these accusations also and am glad you have these WTS authenticated copies for us.

I especially was interested to read that the WTS claimed:

The presiding office of the Watch Tower Society at Brooklyn is and always was to a large degree friendly to Germany. It was for this reason that in 1918 the President of the Society and the seven members of the Board of Directors were condemned in America to 80 years imprisonment because the President refused to use two of his journals in America for war propaganda against Germany {bold added}

Interestingly the Proclaimers book gives a different reason for their imprisonment. It states they were charged with four counts:

Two charged them with conspiring to violate the Espionage Act of June 15, 1917; and two counts charged them with attempting to carry out their illegal plans or actually doing so. It was alleged that they were conspiring to cause insubordination and refusal of duty in the armed forces of the United States and that they were conspiring to obstruct the recruiting and enlisting of men for such service when the nation was at war.....The indictment made particular mention of publication and distribution of the book The Finished Mystery. (Proclaimers Book pg.650 par.3)

Further on, the WTS reports what the motivation behind the imposing of such a severe prison term was. It states:

Judge Harland B. Howe declared: "In the opinion of the Court, the religious propaganda which these defendants have vigorously advocated and spread throughout the nation as well as among our allies, is a greater danger than a division of the German Army." (pg.652,par.3){bold added}

That doesn't exactly sound to me like they were charged because of the WT President refusing to use two of his journals in America for war propaganda against Germany as the WTS claimed to Hitler.

The WTS in its Proclaimers book on page 656,par.1, clearly later lays the blame for its imprisonment on the clergy as they quote from Dr. Ray Abrams' book Preachers Present Arms:

Dr. Ray Abrams..also stated: "An analysis of the whole case leads to the conclusion that the churches and the clergy were originally behind the movement to stamp out the Russellites." - Pp.183-5

Also note that this letter to Hitler states that these 5000 delegates representing "several millions of Germans, who for many years, have been friends and members of this movement" attended the convention in Berlin. This again show the WTS tactics of trying to influence or gain credibility through its infering it has such large numbers. -"several million" friends and members?

Thanks for the reminder Kent of how the WTS twists things to suit its own purpose. Representing God as they claim? Doesn't seem like it to me.

113

Next get together in Toronto!!! :-)

by peterstride in

jw
friends

hi gang, .

to make it easier for the out of towners (especially the ones driving in from the us), how does everyone feel about having our next get together on a saturday...say saturday, august 18th, starting at 4pm?

(i'll be working on the 11th and the 25th...).

Had Enough

Hark expatbrit!

This gentle maiden didst cast her eyes on thy lovely words "dewy-eyed maiden". Thou didst tickle mine own "ears" and make the cheeks grow rosey.

Hark Sir Knight! (or is that Monty Python lingo?) Oh well LOL expatbrit.

Hey Peter:
Still doesn't look like I can get away next weekend. Sure hope we can all do it again in September.

Email of your plans anyway OK?...just in case I can make some last minute switcheroos.

20

Society instructions to elders about child abuse

by ozziepost in

in view of current developments it may be useful to some who have come to the child abuse issue only recently to highlight the watchtower society's instructions to elders.. in a letter to boe dated november 1, 1995 they make the incriminating statement "it is important to first obtain the society's direction to protect both the elders and the organisation.

incriminating?

yes, for they show clearly what is most important to them.

Had Enough

Hello Anchor:

I've read the questions before that 'somebody' quoted in her post to you and wondered how the elders felt when they were read to them to copy into their books.

May I ask you, as an elder, how did you feel when you were writing them down?

Did you think 'Yes' I can see how this is necessary to protect the Society or the GB?

Or did bells and whistles go off, making you realize how serious a situation could be for the elders in that the whole responsibility for any decision and action taken (or not taken) would be on the heads of the elders involved?

Did any of the elders there discuss this privately afterwards and express concern or approval?

I wonder because when I look at each one of them, I can see exactly what the WTS is saying.

If ever in court, they can say the records show that the elders acted entirely on their own...no involvement from the WTS attorneys...or the Legal Dept...no direction from the WTS....no influence from the WTS etc.

Did any of this cross your mind at the time? Please understand..no criticism is being made...I'm only curious how this went over.

Thanks for your input and for your honesty in what your intentions are. I wish you the best.

13

Why did he do it?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

have you wondered why god allowed the watchtower organisation to start in the first place?.

is it really god's organisation, that's just got corrupted?.

was it ever god's organisation?.

Had Enough

Thanks Ozzie:

Nitie-nite!

13

Why did he do it?

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

have you wondered why god allowed the watchtower organisation to start in the first place?.

is it really god's organisation, that's just got corrupted?.

was it ever god's organisation?.

Had Enough

Mornin' Ozzie:

I would so dearly love to have an answer to these questions.

Since leaving that which I spent my whole life believing and trying hard to be loyal and acceptable, I have been groping around trying to find what I believe in now. I wonder even sometimes whether the Bible really is God's word.

I want to believe it is and follow its teachings and principles, but when there are so many variations, in different translations, to important statements determining a belief, it is difficult to form an opinion sometimes.

I want to believe God cares but there are too many 'whys' that just don't add up, and the more I look into things and find out more that the WTS was wrong on, the more I feel confused.

I feel now just like those we used to preach to...the ones that are searching and wanting to know 'what is God's purpose for man'.

Did we need the WTS to teach us good principles? There are many "in the world" that have just as good if not better principles and morals.

I hope you and anyone else, can supply some answers...or do we just have to keep on searching for the answer?

I understand why 'bboyneko' feels God doesn't care, when we see stories like he related happening over and over again. I don't want to believe God doesn't care, but then that "why" keeps coming up.

I guess until I have the answer, I'll just keep on searching.

Cheers my friend,

20

Society instructions to elders about child abuse

by ozziepost in

in view of current developments it may be useful to some who have come to the child abuse issue only recently to highlight the watchtower society's instructions to elders.. in a letter to boe dated november 1, 1995 they make the incriminating statement "it is important to first obtain the society's direction to protect both the elders and the organisation.

incriminating?

yes, for they show clearly what is most important to them.

Had Enough

Good Morn' Ozzie:

Yes this is good for all to keep in mind. These copies of letters have been such a revelation to many of us who didn't have a clue this was even a problem anywhere. I certainly fell into that category of the "deaf, dumb, and blind".

It certainly is obvious, from the WTS's "incriminating" statement, wherein lies their main concern. Its in only themselves and their image.

And when you say:

Undoubtedly the Society intended for the publishers to 'go to the elders'. Will the Society now protect elders who have been following directions?

Doesn't the word "scapegoat" come to mind?

I'm sure as Maximus has said, there are not just a few very troubled elders out there right now going through their own "crisis of conscience" and making difficult decisions because of it.

Cheers

23

Compassion For Those Who Remain Silent

by Kismet in

jw
friends

fellow jw-com'ers:.

as excited as we are by the events announced by silent lambs and upcoming media attention, i would like to ask people to remember the many silent lambs who simply cannot speak or have not yet found their voice.. these victims should not be made to feel as second class people for their decision to remain silent.

i will not go into all the possible reasons why these victims remain silent.

Had Enough

Thank You Kismet:

I add my voice of support to all the others here.

Certainly, whatever we can do to let these ones know we are with them 100%, we'll do.

Having our eyes opened has also opened our hearts and our hearts go out to all you who are suffering in silence.

You are a fine gentleman Kismet. I'm glad I met you.

14

Doubt Not-Fire Two......

by silentlambs in

jw
friends

i am going to let j. r. brown look this one up for himself,.

from day one of this issue being raised the watchtower has maintained there is no problem with child molesters being shielded within the community of jehovahs witnesses.

the questions that beg to be answered are: .

Had Enough

Greetings silentlambs:

When I first started hearing that there was an abuse problem in the congregations, I found that so hard to deal with, and this was after I stopped attending meetings.

It just seemed to be the worst possible thing to hear about. Yet everytime I turn around, the facts just keep getting worse and worse.

I've heard about some cases to be made public that just made my stomach turn and later when dwelling on it just caused me to break down and ask WHY. How the WTS can defend these monsters is beyond my comprehension. And I'm referring not to alleged abuses. These are proven facts that could only lead to a conviction.

Now, as if hearing details and facts of proven abuses is not bad enough, to hear that after a conviction, the molester is being supported by other JWs makes me absolutely sick.

1.If a child molester is convicted in a court of law will the brothers and sisters support the victim?

What is wrong with these people? I am so completely dumbfounded beyond words. Even if he is repentant, he needs to prove himself and pay his dues before he should get words of praise and pats on the back. Is the victim getting the same kind of support or more?

2.Will a sex offender be disfellowshipped if he maintains innocence after being convicted by a court of law?

I would think that the justice system has improved enough in these matters to be able to establish guilt without a doubt.

3.If a molested victim no longer goes to meetings and the child molester has been convicted what will witnesses do at their sentencing hearing.

True Christians principles would show love and concern and support for the victim, but of course I guess the operative word here is "true".

4.Will Watchtower encourage elders and publishers to testify in behalf of a convicted pedophile

How they can expect to lessen the "reproach on God's name" by supporting the "convicted" pedophile is beyond stupidity. The world will be watching and the reproach and shame will be piled high by their supporting the molester and turning their back on the victim.

Yes I can hear the "pep rallys" now drumming up support for the molester under the guise of the "recommendation" that true loyal Witnesses will want to show do all they can to keep the reproach from God's name by showing how much they "love" their brothers and sisters and blah blah blah.

How sickening...utterly sickening.

13

JUSTICE #17 - DFing by PHONE

by Amazing in

jw
friends

justice #17 dfing by phone .

the telephone can be so useful, yet in some ways so cold and impersonal.

i wonder how the sister in the following account must have felt when she was df'd by phone: .

Had Enough

Hello Amazing:

You said:

It is to help those who are still healing to understand more of what happened to them, and why they are not crazy, but they are victims of a religious system that went out of control with the advent of Joseph F. Rutherford, and contiued on to this day.

I just want to assure you that for me, and I am sure for many others too from many of the replies you have received from your other Justice Series, you are accomplishing your goal as you stated above.

When I read your first few accounts, I just sat with my jaw dropped in absolute disbelief that things could be so much worse than I had even known. When I expressed that to you, you assured me that the accounts you would be relating would shock me even more...and they did. But they have helped me to see the true picture of the WTS and the men who are running it.

I appreciate hearing from someone who has first hand experience with these men that:

Several, if not most, members of the Governing Body do not believe some or all of what they teach JWs, thus making them criminals -- at least in a moral sense, if not in a civil sense.

You and other elders, COs and DOs here "in the know" offer your experiences and the knowledge you have uncovered of the deceit and misleading that has been going on in the borg for too long.

That info you and others supply in your posts has helped me get past the guilt feelings that crop up every so often as a result of the indoctrinization the WTS is so good at.

I'm sure every congregation has its share of the "busybodies" you described. I know I've seen them in action and wish sometimes now I would have had the gumption when I was associating, to ask them why, instead of telling everyone else about so-and-so's questionable actions, didn't they just put the Bible's councel in practice and go first to the one you see stumbling and try to help them yourself. Too many times I've seen people just go running to the elders first with their "observations" about someone.

Thanks again Amazing for all you doing to help those of us who are "trying to find our sea legs" as it were.